Eric Shmidt's opinion on this topic has no value. People like him are treated way better than ordinary people in Muslim countries. People like me can be arrested/executed for the silliest of reasons [1][2][3]
I wouldn't ever go to a Muslim country because some rich dude said it's quite alright. What works for them needn't work for me.
> I wouldn't ever go to a Muslim country because some rich dude said it's quite alright.
Wow, I'm amazed that this comment can take top spot on HN. How does this even happen? There are plenty of 'muslim countries' that are perfectly fine. Jordan, Turkey, Morocco, Dubai and Oman strike me as immediately safe 'muslim' places to go to. Millions of tourists go to these places every year and are fine.
The problems in Pakistan are not about whether or not it's a "muslim country" as you put it. The problems are based on what is societally and culturally acceptable which is a progression of traditions and norms, not Islam itself.
Let me put it this way, try swapping Muslim out for Jewish and re-read that statement, or Muslim for Christian. How do you think a muslim Pakistani would feel dressed normally for Pakistan in the bible belt of the US? Does that mean that they shouldn't go to Mardi Gras in New Orleans?
I'd hoped to see more discussion on the specifics in HN rather than sweeping statements with an undercurrent of racism.
The Dubai Sheikh torture clip is infamous now. Amazing how you can torture a guy and not go to jail if you're a Sheikh. We know about this specific incident because of the video leakk. Who knows what else goes on there. http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=7402099
A lot of these emirates are guilty of encouraging human trafficking to allow supply of cheap labour. When your rich american/european visits the UAE, he doesn't see the human rights violations going on right around him - partly because his environment is sanitized of ill treatment of labour from poorer countries and partly because he chooses not to see. Should we all just shut up about the UAE's behaviour then?
The reason turkey, morocco etc are better behaved are because they're dependent on EU for economic support. I didn't mean to go muslim bashing with my comment but as you can see, they're easy to classify in this fashion. I wouldn't go to China either for the same reason I wouldn't go to a muslim country.
I can't believe you're trying to defend this position. I'm really quite shocked.
Human rights abuses against local people for dissent happen all around the world, including the US and the UK. In Germany you can be jailed for denying the holocaust. In France you can be jailed for wearing a headscarf. Exercising common sense is generally a good thing to do anywhere you go, but the things you talk about occur around the world and aren't just limited to states with a majority muslim population.
> The reason turkey, morocco etc are better behaved are because they're dependent on EU for economic support.
It's clear you've never been to Turkey. Turkey's outpaced the EU for economic growth for years and effectively dodged an economic bullet by not joining the EU. It may benefit by not being in the Euro, but loses out on tariffs and taxes. If you walk around Levent in Istanbul you'll see the real money's coming from China, Russia and the Middle East, not Europe.
With regards to your other points, I have nothing to add.
Regards Turkey - I'm not disagreeing, but I must point out that Turkey wouldn't have gotten to where it is except for a freak chance in getting Ataturk who specifically modeled the country to be viable to enter Europe; that process is being reversed gradually by the those elected in power today.
Turkey is where it stands precisely because Ataturk decided that they had to join the Euro region, and then had the military on his side who constantly defended his vision and the secular fabric of the nation.
Later, the Euro rejected them, to their current benefit.
Today, the secular institutions built during the earlier reign are slowly being converted and accommodating a new political reality which is a lot more comfortable with its Islamic credentials.
> I'm not disagreeing, but I am pointing out that Turkey really wouldn't have gotten there for a freak chance in getting Ataturk who specifically modeled the country to be viable to enter Europe, and that process is currently being reversed gradually by the those elected in power.
I see where you're coming from but when you look into it the whole thing isn't so clean cut. Ataturk was obviously the singularly biggest influence in modern Turkish history, but because of it's geography Turkey has always had prospects to do well. It's position in control of shipping between the mediterranean and black sea, combined with it's black sea and mediterranean coasts and position as a gateway to Iraq, Russia and Greece has meant that it was always going to be a major trade centre.
Ataturk never modeled the country on being able to enter Europe, he died decades before the coal and steel treaty and the Euro region didn't exist until 1992 depending on your views on EU history. Ataturk's foreign policy doctrine was one of strict neutrality, "Peace at home, Peace in the world" (Yurtta Barış, Dünyada Barış). The decision to keep Turkey out has been largely made by the French and German governments who are worried about uneducated Turks coming into Europe and flooding the labour market and (particularly in the French case) not integrating into their host countries' cultures.
Ataturk modeled his country on the Austrian system as the best way of modernising a new country widely regarded as extremely behind the times. This was a continuation and radical acceleration of work that had been going on for nearly 200 years prior (with the help of the Germans, which is why the Ottomans were forced into the war on the German side, that and an alliance between France and Russia being seen as a threat). The acceleration of that only occurred because of the destruction of the caliphate and the establishment of a secular republic.
Later in Ataturk's life and in order to maintain territorial integrity a personality cult was built around him, this was to keep the revolution going, to ensure that the country didn't sink into religious backwardsness and that they could keep themselves as an independent state without having to deal with external interference. Other leaders who included Ataturk's principles of Kemalism to some extent included Nasser and Mossadegh.
In the end Ataturk's models became so fixed by subsequent leaders that his party CHP lost it's relevance and AKP, the current party gained power. Now AKP is putting it's people into various positions to ensure it's longevity. While it has a much more pro-Islamic agenda, AKP cannot afford to overstep the mark and betray it's financial backers, who'll pull out the rug as soon as someone more moderate comes along.
If you're interested in reading about Ataturk, Andrew Mango's Ataturk book is the definitive English language book on the matter.
Thanks for adding detail, and suggesting a book for further reference.
While continuing to be numinous about the backers, it can be pointed out that there are also backers who can easily fund a movement further towards an even more pro-Islamic agenda. Not that I am arguing that this will happen or not.
I understand your point on the CHP losing its relevance, but partly that was also because the AKP tapped into the hitherto sidelined but more populous communities in Turkey, who are more pro-Islam. Correct me if I am wrong. These matters tend to always be intricate once you reach a certain level of magnification, so I am sure there are further factors at work behind the AKP's rise.
edit: removed redundant line on financial backers, cleared position a bit.
Please stop propaganda. There's no jail in France for the hidjab (or what this scarf is). It's a 150 euro fine. Not for wearing the hidjab, but for covering the face in public. Real jail time or corporal punishment is a different story, don't you agree?
Let's say I had a few beers and took a leak on the street. Is there a difference between a few hundred bucks fine and having my weapon of crime chopped off?
There's something in his position worth defending. And I guess that the difference is in the age. Islam is younger than Christianity, they're a few hundred years behind. Remember what Christians were doing 600 years ago? Inquisition, Crusades, etc. But this is just my theory.
"Remember what Christians were doing 600 years ago? Inquisition, Crusades, etc"
Yeah Christians did it 600 YEARS AGO. But islamic countries do that kind of horror nowadays and AFAIK they did not developed in a bubble, isolated from the other countries. So it is perfectly relevant to judge them.
Human Rights are universal, not a simple "cultural standard".
Where are Muslim Crusades currently being waged? Remember that the Crusades were a huge undertaking involving many entire nations engaged in full scale war.
To run a crusade you need a target. All obvious targets for Muslim crusades either have the nukes, or rumored to have nukes or have friends with nukes. Bummer.
Even if that were not the case, and even if it were actually true that the majority of today's Muslims were in support of such adventures (let alone willing to die in the numbers that European crusaders did) ... Muslim countries are flat out too poor to dedicate the same percentage of GDP that European countries did to the Crusade. The ones which are less poor are making all their money by working with the West anyway.
Agree in general, but I believe that if there was no (rumor of) nuke in Israel, they would have tried (again).
Another "positive" moment within the Muslim world itself is that Muslims are still happily killing each other (like Christians were doing a few centuries ago). Eventually they will stop doing this.
I came from a very civilized place where a bunch of girls sang a song wearing masks in the cathedral (there were very few other people), recorded a video [1] without the sound and then put it on the youtube. They have been imprisoned without justice for 3 months and recently their stay was extended for another 2.
Russia really has a wonder in intellectuals with science and art to give to the world -- I wish all your oil disappear, so there isn't anything for the politicians to steal anymore :-(
Besides, the problem there is hardly the cathedral, it is the opposition to your thieves of politicians.
The problem is in both. Cathedral was used as a weapon of mass approval for the punishment. And it worked :-( I don't care much for politicians, they come and go, but when half of the population (I'm very conservative here) approves the injustice based on blasphemy, I lose the faith.
You are right about the shift in Turkey's trade to the middle east. Turkey still exports something like 25% - 40% of its total exports to EU countries (not sure about exact % right now). If the EU imposed trade sanctions on Turkey, it would be hard to argue that there would be no effect.
How can you even compare holocaust denial laws to what muslim countries do? You think denying people the right to disagree with the state or condemning them to a life with their rapist or torturing a man AND taking away the right of people to deny a historical fact are the same thing? I don't see why the holocaust denial law is necessary but I don't see it as being oppressive to rights that should be fundamental!
Religious headscarves should be banned for the same reason slavery is. Just because a slave would never complain to law enforcement agencies and does not see the injustice in his life because he has been brainwashed and accepts his fate does not mean the state should not enforce his rights. Have you even seen the plight of women in an orthodox muslim family? Would you consider a muslim women who only does what she is "allowed" as your equal? Banning the hijab was a good move - it is a symbol of oppression.
There you go with the 'muslim countries' thing again. It's not like you can lump a whole load of different countries into one basket and make sweeping generalisations.
"How can you even compare holocaust denial laws to what muslim countries do?" - Very easily. The holocaust was over 65 years ago. The perpetrators of this egregious act are mostly dead. The victims of this egregious act are mostly dead. The modern German of today had nothing to do with the holocaust. Their mother and father had nothing to do with the holocaust. What does making holocaust denial do other than prohibit a form of dissent? Does it bring people back to life? No, it does not. Does it stop it from happening again? Just because a crime is unmentionable does not mean that it would not happen (and the holocaust is not the only genocide, nor the most efficient one, there have been many more before and since).
When you remove the right to say fuck, you remove the right to say fuck the government. In Germany any debate on the extent of the holocaust is stifled due to the law, the same (but opposite case) as it is in Turkey with respect to the atrocities referred to by some as the Armenian Genocide. In both cases the law is wrong and stifles free speech and people go to jail[1][2] for dissent against it.
> Religious headscarves should be banned for the same reason slavery is.
You really have no understanding of the purpose, origin or practice of the headscarf in countries around the middle-east and mediterranean whatsoever. Would it come as some surprise to you to know that in the early 20th century Irish women would wear headscarves to protect their modesty? Oh those poor oppressed Irish women, whatever became of them?
"Would it come as some surprise to you to know that in the early 20th century Irish women would wear headscarves to protect their modesty? Oh those poor oppressed Irish women, whatever became of them?"
They quit wearing them, it would seem. This puts them a century ahead.
Yes, because what you wear on your head is equivalent to 100 years of technological and cultural progress. Thank goodness no-one in the west wears hats anymore, ban them!
Regarding the subject of denying crimes against humanity, how is the Pakistani education about the mass murders in Bangladesh 40 years ago -- by Pakistani troops?
(Afaik, Pakistani students coming to western Europe haven't heard about them.)
>>Oh those poor oppressed Irish women, whatever became of them?
They got their freedom and human rights a little later than other countries in western Europe -- Ireland had a bit of a tough history, for a while. When does that freedom come to the Mid East and Pakistan?
Edit: "You can find X everywhere" is easy, for most any X. But it is often dishonest and lazy. E.g. rapes happens in prisons in most any country -- but a serious argument would note that it is totally different if it happens to 5% of the prison population or 0.1 promille. And if it is a "job bonus" for the guards, like Syria.
> I can't believe you're trying to defend this position. I'm really quite shocked.
You may not realize it, but the main reason you're upset at asto is not sweeping unpleasant things under the rug of Political Correctness. Sadly, this is a very common phenomenon among white Western people.
I see where you're coming from but you're incorrect. It's not about sweeping things under the rug. It's the tarring of all 'muslim countries' (whatever that means) with the same brush, as though we ourselves in non 'muslim countries' don't have the same problems.
It's the perpetuation of all muslims as evil savages that leads to the idea that they're somehow subhuman. Just because some of the 'other' may (or may not) talk differently, have a beard, dress differently or not drink alcohol doesn't mean that they aren't people. And yes, all countries have their problems with human rights abuses, people being attacked for various reasons and so on, but it's important to separate the religious element from the culture of individual ethnic and tribal groups.
To tar all 'muslim countries' is to tar 'muslims' as being part of that, and that's a slippery slope some seem to be further down than others.
> It's the perpetuation of all muslims as evil savages that leads to the idea that they're somehow subhuman.
Well they do keep burying their teenage daughters alive for showing too much skin or refusing an arranged marriage or whatever.
Don't tell me it's not all of them. It's just that a considerable part of them are insane savages completely incompatible with 2012.
It's alright for them to be a different color, wear different clothes and speak a foreign language, but it's most certainly Not OK to murder people in broad daylight over "insulting" The Religion Of Peace (tm).
istanbul is to turkey what new york is to the usa - an outlier, nothing in common with the rest of the country.
i have a friend who was a human rights lawyer in turkey, defending kurdish dissidents - he lives in austria now, cause after being in jail, being tortured, etc he had enough. real, nasty torture, not loud music.
turkey is on its way back into islam, atatürk's laicistic idea of countryhood is being dismantled.
so, all in all, you have no fucking clue what you're posting about.
Plenty of Occupy protestors around the US have been abused[1][2]. During the civil rights movement in the 1950s the US used water cannons to disperse crowds of non-violent protestors. In the US you have 'free speech zones' far away from events that people would protest against, stopping them from protesting on public property[3]. The US will even stop people entering the country that are critical, or even make jokes about the country[4].
In the UK, 53 people were arrested[5] the day before the royal wedding last year in order to avoid dissent. The police in the UK practice a method known as kettling to force protesters into cramped spaces and deny them access to water or sanitation facilities, even using this against the young[7]. At the London G20 protests in 2009 a man with no connection to the protests was struck by a police officer[8] and later died.
My point to all of this is that to say that 'they' are savages is disingenuous. We aren't so enlightened as we lead ourselves to believe and we shouldn't expect others to meet high standards we continually breach. This isn't a political statement for me. It's an acceptance of the world we live in. If people didn't dissent, this wouldn't happen, but if people didn't dissent, then civil rights wouldn't have happened either.
No, my argument was one of racism in the initial response to what was then the top comment, specifically about the term 'muslim countries' within the context of Pakistan. This is wrong as islam is a religion not a race, although as the comment was specifically in response to Pakistan is not entirely wrong, nor right. The correct argument is that the original commenter is an islamophobe who considers muslims some generic 'other' subhuman.
In response to your comment you asked me to document rights abuses in the US, which I did.
I'm willing to visit Jordan and Turkey (Turkey is already on my list of places to go, in fact). But Morocco, Dubai (UAE), and Oman are definitely not "perfectly fine". And race isn't a factor for me in making this distinction - the laws of the country make the decision for me, and any country that punishes private, consensual sex among individuals of the same gender through fines or jail time is a country I'm not willing to risk visiting, whether or not I plan on having sex there.
I'd hoped to see more discussion on the specifics in HN rather than sweeping statements with an undercurrent of racism.
It's a sweeping statement but it clearly has nothing to do with race. For instance, this dude would be happy in Singapore or Thailand but not in the bit of Malaysia that lies between 'em. I doubt it's because of the marginally different racial mixes you're likely to find as you cross the borders.
You are right that religion != race, and for that I apologise. However, the anti-islam sentiment that I see tends to focus on those 'nasty brown people', which too unfortunately pakistanis get lumped into.
Last time I wen't to Pakistan I was pretty happy with it and I'm not even a rich dude. Carefully check how the Muslim world works because it's quite similar to how the Western works: it's a bunch of different countries that share common interests and disagree on a lot of other things.
Trying to make a story with three links pointing at different countries.. Try the same with Hungary, Spain and the USA. You will hardly say anything interesting.
As far as Pakistan is concerned, make sure that you don't consider the Tribal Areas the same way you would consider the country itself. They are independent in many regards.
Knowing is understanding. I suggest you say no to your condition and discover other cultures and people. You will certainly become a much more interesting person in the process.
"The U.S. is openly accusing the Pakistani military of collaborating with Islamic terrorists, particularly the Haqqani Network, which has long enjoyed sanctuary in North Waziristan. The U.S. publicly agrees with many Pakistanis that the Pakistani military of being out-of-control and a threat to Pakistani democracy. Pakistanis who express these beliefs openly in Pakistan can get arrested or killed."
At least the western countries don't build and finance terror networks to attack neighbours. And so on.
It is a pity for the country, the economy should go like India or China if the place was better managed. I hope the article is correct in its optimism.
(I read that site for fun and to get the opposite perspective from my local Swedish media, which aren't that dependable.)
At least the western countries don't build and finance terror networks to attack neighbours. And so on.
Are you serious?
"In Nicaragua, the National Guard was a militia and a gendarmerie created during the occupation of that country by the United States from 1909 to 1933. It became notorious for human rights abuses and corruption under the regime of the Somoza family."
"The United States' Joint Special Operations Command (JSOT) conducted training for the Mujahedin-e-Khalq (MEK), an Iranian opposition group listed by the US as a terrorist organization, journalist Seymour Hersh claims."
"Washington, fearing the spread of Soviet influence (and worse the new government's radical example) to its allies in Pakistan, Iran and the Gulf states, immediately offered support to the Afghan mujaheddin, as the "contra" force was known."
I'm sure you're aware that the mujahheddin became Al-Quaeda.
This is just the US, because that's where the majority of the posters on this site are from. You can easily find examples of the UK & France doing the same thing. "The western countries" hands are not clean.
I wrote neighboring countries. There is also a difference -- granted, sometimes quite small in civil wars -- between terror/guerilla. (Besides, most any case is from the cold war.)
Also, if a country is the biggest terror sponsor on the planet, like Iran, I don't exactly feel sorry as long as civilians aren't targeted.
Edit: To be obvious, terror is worse for western governments, since they need to win elections. The idea with terrorism is to scare civilians -- it is just a place where those governments don't want to go.
In my opinion the "biggest terror sponsor" has to be the US and other "leading" European countries such as my own: France. All recent large-scale wars have been perpetrated by these countries and what's worse on the very name of freedom and for the ultimate good of human beings (except when it was a revenge, but I'd forgive America for that one quite easily even though it's one of the biggest recent mess).
Ahmadinejad has Fuck-You-Power (as in Fuck-You-Money) and he uses it. He doesn't need any Western government and doesn't care putting up with international sanctions. Whether he is doing good any good to his own country is another matter entirely.
I don't subscribe to the Western theory that Iran as a whole is a threat to anything. They see nuclear technology as both a mean to assert their military supremacy and as a way to overcome their energy issues so they go for it regardless of what other countries think of it. Right now, Nuclear weapons are still used by "strong" countries to impose their supremacy.
Look at Israel. That problem is unmanageable. I strongly believe that if Iran had Nuclear power, Israel would play much lower profile in the region and discuss equitably how to settle the issues over there.
A couple of things I wish to add: the balance of power must shift. Nobody likes living in a world that is biased toward a small group of "leading" countries. Nuclear power is like the instant disruption factor in the balance of power. An alternative is a slow and painful fight between countries such as what happens between Israel and their neighbouring countries.
> Nuclear power is like the instant disruption factor in the balance of power.
I used to believe this, but now I think it's no longer true. It's a case of aspirant countries looking up to the nuclear powers, and drawing the wrong conclusions.
Nuclear weapons are the end-product of a system and process. There's a notion that to surpass the master, you need to ask what the master sought, rather than copying what the master did. In some way, this pursuit of nuclear weapons is cargo-cultish.
How much more secure would Iran be if it had invested money in offensive and defensive cyberwarfare, instead of nuclear?
The problem is that the talent required to drive that doesn't want to live in Tehran, when they can live in San Francisco, New York, or Montreal.
If experience of India and Pakistan have to show anything, developing Nuclear Weapons is not a big deal, except when there are systematic attack against your infrastructure and scientists by foreign powers. Heck, I would wager that any decently educated engineers and physicist with government backing can build a nuclear bomb. The domain knowledge is not very exotic, either.
I think your logic misses he important factor here.
There must be some serious conflict: Juntas need external enemies, so opposition becomes treachery.
It is a pity, Iran would probably be a really cool place without the theocracy. I just hope those thieves don't get millions of Iranians killed before they are thrown out.
>>In my opinion the "biggest terror sponsor" has to be the US and other "leading" European countries such as my own: France. All recent large-scale wars have been perpetrated by these countries
Wars != terror. Which you know, you're just arguing dishonestly.
(Also, check the democratic peace theory on Wikipedia.)
Second paragraph -- "Ahmadinejad has Fuck-You-Power" is totally wrong, too. Most analysts claim he is on the wrong side with the theocracy and is more or less a figurehead for now.
I stopped reading. You're a propagandist or a troll.
When reading such things, we should try to imagine what Pakistan is facing in its remote areas. The coalition forces messed things up in the area.
Why was Bin Laden was in Pakistan?
Several Pakistanis regions bordering Afghanistan live in a legally or de-facto quasi-autonomy. They are tribal by nature (be it their name or not) and since the war in Afghanistan started, they are facing deep changes in their power structure due to waves of migrants and militants. Such areas have also been steeply radicalising (remember the Swat war?).
So, if Pakistanis officials are trying to keep a sense of unity, and perhaps reinforce Pakistani feeling, by collaborating with what the West sees as terror networks, so be it.
They must ensure that these areas don't radicalise more and that it doesn't spread.
Now, the US is totally biased in the situation. It's literally been trying to dictate decisions to the Pakistani officials (military or political) for years.
> At least the western countries don't build and finance terror networks to attack neighbours. And so on.
I'm unsure whether this is a joke or not. It has to be a joke, right?
Regarding the freedom of speech, I'll ask you if you think it matters. Because if you think it matters there are a couple of things you might consider:
You could stop buying Japanese cars and hard-drives as Thai people end up in jail for expressing opinions that go against the monarchy (google lèse-majesté law in Thailand).
You could stop buying French cars and wine as migrants are put in "jails" and drugged against their will to keep them quiet and sometimes denied lawyers and assistance.
You could stop buying IT equipment because of the situation in China.
etc...
What I do know about Pakistan is that the government was deeply criticized for their handling of the floods in 2009. I also do know for reading from there that freedom of speech in the press is not a vain thing (being French, living in Thailand, I've actually found their critics very open).
I'm not very hopeful regarding the freedom of speech in general. In France nobody talks about those migrant centres that I called "jails" above. Nobody cares. In Thailand people think it's fine to have such a law (of course, except those who have something to say). I think there's a threshold under which a problem isn't a problem for enough people to reach a critical mass that could lead to a change.
The claim that the perpetrators of 9/11 were only "what the West sees as terror networks" is breathtakingly disingenuous.
I hear that Bin Laden died in Abbottabad. I'm no Pakistan expert, but on my map that is not in FATA. It is a short commute from the capital of the country. The house was right next to a top military academy.
If openly supporting the perpetrators of 9/11 is what Pakistan needs to do in order to 'ensure that these areas don't radicalise more' then I wonder for whose benefit Pakistan is doing this wonderful thing. Certainly not New York's... probably just the government of Pakistan, actually. What do I care, if that government also would like me to die, whether it considers some villagers to be radical?
Lese-majeste sucks, but seriously - buying Thai parts through Japanese companies is hardly comparable to harboring and feeding intelligence to the perpetrators of 9/11 in order to maintain the upper hand in the conflict with India.
Do you have any supporting references for thinking it is just funny that ISI et al support terror groups, mainly for use against India?
It is easy to infiltrate the militarised border to go into Indian Kashmir for the terrorists? The Pakistani military REALLY tries to stop the infiltrators...? :-)
And so on.
I'm not an expert, but I need good references or I'll think you're a troll or writing propaganda.
I wouldn't ever go to a Muslim country because some rich dude said it's quite alright. What works for them needn't work for me.
[1]http://articles.cnn.com/2012-03-13/asia/world_asia_pakistan-... [2]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamza_Kashgari [3]http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/iran-must-halt-execution-web-...